You described literally what I felt at age 4/5, I thought I was a Janey-girl and could never get married,‘absolutely knew I only liked men, particularly “Hercules”. That was 1968 or so.
Quite effeminate, but smart, I read a lot a the local library. I became aware of genital surgery around 1970, and that was a clear path for me. Tom Snyder’s “Tomorrow” changed all that.
Over the years I turned into a pale blond 250lb “Grizzly Adams” version of Hercules, I’m one of the ones who could march into a gay venue, take my shirt off and “date” anyone.
I agree with you, with qualification : effeminate _assertive__ gay men I know seem to have as much sex as they want (“dating”). I’ve known many gay couples as friends, for decades, and about half of them have one or both of the partners being not butch.
What I’ve observed to trip gay men up in the ‘dating’ market, as with all people really, is self-confidence.
You point out precisely the monkey-wrench of trying to appear as you believe someone wants.
As Oscar Wilde wrote, several ways:
‘Being natural is simply a pose, and the most irritating pose I know.'
‘To be natural is such a very difficult pose to keep up.'
I only went to Trans bars in LA a few times in the 80’s and in Paris and Amsterdam a few times - I lived above one in Amsterdam, in the worst part of the city in 1993. They invariably struck me as being places to pick up a hooker. Likewise, talking to the men there was an exercise in listening to when they could get surgery, because they could make better money.
Another stunningly brilliant piece, Arty. So much insight.
It is indeed the medical "professionals", who are so ready to slice and dice and drug and take the money, who deserve the blame, all of it. They are supposed to know better. They are supposed to care.
Hang on a minute. Please provide some statistics on the incidence of gay male transwomanhood in the gay population. It strikes me that the numbers would be so small as to represent a series of individual personal tragedies not a social phenomenon worth writing about.
In 2024 a gay man would have to be mentally ill to conclude that becoming a woman is the way to find a life partner and have a family. Being gay isn't just about being romantically and sexually attracted to men. To be gay is to be a MAN who is romantically and sexually attracted to men.
The idea that gay men want to become women is not only horrific, it is homophobic. The only situation where this might happen would be if an effeminate boy grew up in cultural and social isolation and was so badly bullied for being a sissy boy that he decided to transition out of desperation. Even then, it would be necessary for him to have come under the influence of gender identity ideology at school, over social media or through an affirming provider of mental or physical health care services.
I've been out since the 70s. In that time, never known a gay man who pursued transwomanhood, known anyone who knew such a person or read reports of such people.
I worked at a trans bar. I've worked at gay bars. I have Grindr and Scruff on my phone. I've read all the books. (You can download The Man Who Would Be Queen for free.) HSTS — homosexual transsexualism — is a primary type of transsexual. In fact, it used to be you couldn't even get approved for a sexchange unless you were gay. I've had gay friends who've transitioned, and died. I assure you, I'm probably the last person on earth who would confuse autogynephiles for gay men. And I referenced the distinction explicitly at the end.
You have to go to a trans bar, they are quite distinct from ordinary gay bars, and they don’t seem to advertise the same way in gay press. That’s my impression.
I submit that it is inappropriate to refer to this type of transsexual as gay. The essence of being gay is actually being a natal male and, in today's gender-speak, identifying as one.
The better approach is to use the 19th century German descriptive scientific term "homosexual" as an adjective and couple it with the noun "transsexual." Homosexual transsexuals is what they are and let's leave gay men out of it.
It isn't just that as a gay man I do not want others to associate me with these unfortunate individuals. Neither am I open to having homosexual transsexuals who identify as women claim to be gay. "Gay" is a label for a specific type of male subculture as much as it is a descriptor of a person's sexual orientation. When a gay man transitions, he leaves his gay identity behind.
If I were researching this question, I'd conduct a broad survey of gay men that would establish whether they consider male-to-female transsexuals of the kind your column deals to be gay. It would be designed to be representative of the variety of demographic, socioeconomic, geographic and subcultural characteristics within the gay population.
I suppose I'd also survey trans women of this type to learn how they see themselves, i.e., Do they identify as women or gay men?
Finally, I'd go a step further and look into the socioeconomic, demographic and geographic characteristics of homosexual transsexuals. Do any patterns or concentrations emerge?
Homosexuality is not an identity or a lifestlye choice or a subculture; it's a biological condition that can be verified in a laboratory independent of people's self-reports. Same-sex attraction is a deep-rooted physiological body response, not a cultural phenomenon. I think you're looking at it from the wrong academic lens entirely. Homosexuals who adopt transgender identities are still, biologically, homosexual.
Who said homosexuality is an identity or lifestyle choice? I certainly didn't. Let me take a different approach at getting my point across. All gays are homosexual, but not all homosexuals are gay. "Gay" and "homosexual" are not interchangeable terms even when referring to men. The critical difference is that the former has a strong cultural and social component while the latter does not. Penile plethysmography should settle the question whether someone is homosexual.
It is inappropriate to apply the label gay to a natal male who has transitioned, thinks of themselves as a straight woman and wants and expects society at large to accept them as a straight woman. The correct term for such a person is, as you have previously acknowledged, homosexual transsexual. If a natal male homosexual trans woman fits within the category of "gay," then the category will have ceased to be of use in understanding human behavior and society.
What to do if such a person carries on in a bar like a campy gay male flamer? It's simple: he'd be a gay-acting trans woman, not a gay man.
If you want to play word games and adopt a personal pet belief that "gay" and "homosexual" are different things — vastly different, according to you — be my guest. Don't go around declaring that this is a universally accepted belief, though. The vast majority of people don't agree, and I would argue you sound pedantic, and there's no point in making hay of the use of "gay" to describe homosexual men.
Who said that "gay" and "homosexual" are vastly different things? What do you think I meant when I said that "all gays are homosexual"? You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me.
My point, which I think I've repeatedly made quite clear, is that gay men and homosexual trans women are vastly different. A homosexual trans woman is not gay nor is he a gay man. You refuse to engage with that point. What about that is so hard to comprehend?
homosexual transwomen are gay men. they are the same. A gay man who gets a sexchange is still a homosexual. And homosexual is the same as gay. Basic logic. Homosexual = gay; gay = homosexual. Are transwomen homosexual males? Yes. Ergo, they are gay men. They personally identify differently. So do "ex-gays" and closeted men. They're still gay. Simple as that. Glad to have cleared this up. Have a nice day.
I called being gay a “hobby” on and off over the decades and it can get “oh yeah of course” or complete meltdowns as a response. (Gay without sex is a hobby; sex is what defines gay men legally) Likewise for homosexual - the clinicalness used to be very irritating (or course, the more clinical the better for me, but I’m strange).
I understand your view, but men in Trans bars are as gay as Ru-Paul; being gay doesn’t make you well-adjusted, and heterosexual men and homosexual men alike can have a fetish for women’s clothing.
You described literally what I felt at age 4/5, I thought I was a Janey-girl and could never get married,‘absolutely knew I only liked men, particularly “Hercules”. That was 1968 or so.
Quite effeminate, but smart, I read a lot a the local library. I became aware of genital surgery around 1970, and that was a clear path for me. Tom Snyder’s “Tomorrow” changed all that.
Over the years I turned into a pale blond 250lb “Grizzly Adams” version of Hercules, I’m one of the ones who could march into a gay venue, take my shirt off and “date” anyone.
I agree with you, with qualification : effeminate _assertive__ gay men I know seem to have as much sex as they want (“dating”). I’ve known many gay couples as friends, for decades, and about half of them have one or both of the partners being not butch.
What I’ve observed to trip gay men up in the ‘dating’ market, as with all people really, is self-confidence.
You point out precisely the monkey-wrench of trying to appear as you believe someone wants.
As Oscar Wilde wrote, several ways:
‘Being natural is simply a pose, and the most irritating pose I know.'
‘To be natural is such a very difficult pose to keep up.'
I only went to Trans bars in LA a few times in the 80’s and in Paris and Amsterdam a few times - I lived above one in Amsterdam, in the worst part of the city in 1993. They invariably struck me as being places to pick up a hooker. Likewise, talking to the men there was an exercise in listening to when they could get surgery, because they could make better money.
Sad and unpleasant.
Your views are accurate.
Another stunningly brilliant piece, Arty. So much insight.
It is indeed the medical "professionals", who are so ready to slice and dice and drug and take the money, who deserve the blame, all of it. They are supposed to know better. They are supposed to care.
Hang on a minute. Please provide some statistics on the incidence of gay male transwomanhood in the gay population. It strikes me that the numbers would be so small as to represent a series of individual personal tragedies not a social phenomenon worth writing about.
In 2024 a gay man would have to be mentally ill to conclude that becoming a woman is the way to find a life partner and have a family. Being gay isn't just about being romantically and sexually attracted to men. To be gay is to be a MAN who is romantically and sexually attracted to men.
The idea that gay men want to become women is not only horrific, it is homophobic. The only situation where this might happen would be if an effeminate boy grew up in cultural and social isolation and was so badly bullied for being a sissy boy that he decided to transition out of desperation. Even then, it would be necessary for him to have come under the influence of gender identity ideology at school, over social media or through an affirming provider of mental or physical health care services.
I've been out since the 70s. In that time, never known a gay man who pursued transwomanhood, known anyone who knew such a person or read reports of such people.
Are you mistaking autogynephiles for gay men?
I worked at a trans bar. I've worked at gay bars. I have Grindr and Scruff on my phone. I've read all the books. (You can download The Man Who Would Be Queen for free.) HSTS — homosexual transsexualism — is a primary type of transsexual. In fact, it used to be you couldn't even get approved for a sexchange unless you were gay. I've had gay friends who've transitioned, and died. I assure you, I'm probably the last person on earth who would confuse autogynephiles for gay men. And I referenced the distinction explicitly at the end.
You have to go to a trans bar, they are quite distinct from ordinary gay bars, and they don’t seem to advertise the same way in gay press. That’s my impression.
I submit that it is inappropriate to refer to this type of transsexual as gay. The essence of being gay is actually being a natal male and, in today's gender-speak, identifying as one.
The better approach is to use the 19th century German descriptive scientific term "homosexual" as an adjective and couple it with the noun "transsexual." Homosexual transsexuals is what they are and let's leave gay men out of it.
It isn't just that as a gay man I do not want others to associate me with these unfortunate individuals. Neither am I open to having homosexual transsexuals who identify as women claim to be gay. "Gay" is a label for a specific type of male subculture as much as it is a descriptor of a person's sexual orientation. When a gay man transitions, he leaves his gay identity behind.
If I were researching this question, I'd conduct a broad survey of gay men that would establish whether they consider male-to-female transsexuals of the kind your column deals to be gay. It would be designed to be representative of the variety of demographic, socioeconomic, geographic and subcultural characteristics within the gay population.
I suppose I'd also survey trans women of this type to learn how they see themselves, i.e., Do they identify as women or gay men?
Finally, I'd go a step further and look into the socioeconomic, demographic and geographic characteristics of homosexual transsexuals. Do any patterns or concentrations emerge?
Homosexuality is not an identity or a lifestlye choice or a subculture; it's a biological condition that can be verified in a laboratory independent of people's self-reports. Same-sex attraction is a deep-rooted physiological body response, not a cultural phenomenon. I think you're looking at it from the wrong academic lens entirely. Homosexuals who adopt transgender identities are still, biologically, homosexual.
Who said homosexuality is an identity or lifestyle choice? I certainly didn't. Let me take a different approach at getting my point across. All gays are homosexual, but not all homosexuals are gay. "Gay" and "homosexual" are not interchangeable terms even when referring to men. The critical difference is that the former has a strong cultural and social component while the latter does not. Penile plethysmography should settle the question whether someone is homosexual.
It is inappropriate to apply the label gay to a natal male who has transitioned, thinks of themselves as a straight woman and wants and expects society at large to accept them as a straight woman. The correct term for such a person is, as you have previously acknowledged, homosexual transsexual. If a natal male homosexual trans woman fits within the category of "gay," then the category will have ceased to be of use in understanding human behavior and society.
What to do if such a person carries on in a bar like a campy gay male flamer? It's simple: he'd be a gay-acting trans woman, not a gay man.
If you want to play word games and adopt a personal pet belief that "gay" and "homosexual" are different things — vastly different, according to you — be my guest. Don't go around declaring that this is a universally accepted belief, though. The vast majority of people don't agree, and I would argue you sound pedantic, and there's no point in making hay of the use of "gay" to describe homosexual men.
Who said that "gay" and "homosexual" are vastly different things? What do you think I meant when I said that "all gays are homosexual"? You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me.
My point, which I think I've repeatedly made quite clear, is that gay men and homosexual trans women are vastly different. A homosexual trans woman is not gay nor is he a gay man. You refuse to engage with that point. What about that is so hard to comprehend?
homosexual transwomen are gay men. they are the same. A gay man who gets a sexchange is still a homosexual. And homosexual is the same as gay. Basic logic. Homosexual = gay; gay = homosexual. Are transwomen homosexual males? Yes. Ergo, they are gay men. They personally identify differently. So do "ex-gays" and closeted men. They're still gay. Simple as that. Glad to have cleared this up. Have a nice day.
I called being gay a “hobby” on and off over the decades and it can get “oh yeah of course” or complete meltdowns as a response. (Gay without sex is a hobby; sex is what defines gay men legally) Likewise for homosexual - the clinicalness used to be very irritating (or course, the more clinical the better for me, but I’m strange).
I understand your view, but men in Trans bars are as gay as Ru-Paul; being gay doesn’t make you well-adjusted, and heterosexual men and homosexual men alike can have a fetish for women’s clothing.