That was really interesting to read, Arty! I completely agree, things seem to have shifted from a matter of politeness and courtesy to a matter of faith/ belief. I wonder if what you described was replicated in the gay and lesbian community in the UK and the rest of Europe and played out in the same way or if the latter part is purely an import of belief from the US? Like Evangelical Churches? LOL!
I used a lot of Americanism -- Blue States, Red States, Trump, MAGA. But I think the trend is applicable across Europe and North America. Im actually in Canada myself, and I'm sure the majority of my readers are in the UK.
No worries, I'm in the UK and a subscriber to both yours and "The Mess" YTube and Glinners substack so I'm familiar with you and where you are coming from. My question was from a place of genuine curiosity and not necessarily directed at you but other readers who might be able to give insight. OK- bear with me! So, I lived in the South of Norway from about 14/15 until 21 years old. In that tiny town (like 6-7 thousand) there were a bunch of churches, way too many. And several of them were Evangelical churches, talking in tongues, disco is the music of the devil, drink alcohol and you'll go to hell types. This was new to me as they weren't a "thing" really in the UK. It was a really weird environment and teenage rebellion was difficult as the Christian Democrat Party prohibited the sale of alcohol but we bought boomboxes and moonshine and made it work hahaha (lots of skinny dipping at night, good times!). Very much like small town America really. But, given the strong ties between Norway and the US (everyone had a cousin living in America) it kind of made sense. Back to the UK in 1997, Evangelical Churches still weren't a thing. But about 15 years ago they did start to become "a thing"! And they are way more widespread. So I'm specifically curious about whether the "religion" of Trans in its current form arrived more or less fully fledged in the UK as an online and/or academic import, given we didn't have the same sociopolitical/ political dynamics happening in the US. Or if LGB people in the UK and the rest of Europe feel that it happened in the same way as in America and Canada? Hope that makes sense?
Oh I'm so silly I should have looked at the username before I replied! Of course I know you, Proseccosaurus! From twitter etc!
That's an interesting upbringing in Norway! And you make an interesting point about Evangelicalism. I'm not sure if this directly relates to your comment, but I think the way that the Left has become religious seems somewhat different than American Evangelicalism. I tend to look at religion from a sociological lens, as a system of keeping groups together; the more insecure a group feels the higher the "cost" to remain in it, and the bigger the "benefit". By "cost" i mean affirming beliefs that are more extreme or adopting practices that are more likely to isolate you from outsiders. And by "benefit" I mean the group supports you more strongly. By that analogy, I guess gender ideology used to be more akin to a liberal christian sect, say, the United Church: you have to mildly believe some mildly untrue things, and you get a mild affirmation from a mildly united group of people. But now it's more akin to evangelicalism I suppose: you have to strictly believe some extremely outrageous things, and you have to cut yourself off from anyone who doesn't agree ("the transphobes!"), and the benefit is that you have a very tight-knit, affirming circle, but only so long as you stay within the rules. Does that make sense?
Yes, I'm Proseccosaurus 😊 I wish I could change my name here and on YTube but it won't seem to let me! Yes, that does make sense when you apply it to the Left as a whole- I was just thinking of LGB communities specifically but they don't exist in a vacuum. Widening it to the Left (where it is now anyway) as whole covers it, as it isn't just Trans ideology that requires you to believe "mildly untrue" things that gradually stretches you towards believing outrageous things if you want to stay within the group is it? There are a lot of other things we are required to "believe" even though they don't stand up to any sort of critical thinking. Looking forward to watching your video when I finish work today so I can listen and think about it some more 😉 Also, have you heard Heterodorx's latest podcast "Why Colleges Are Becoming Cults"? I haven't listened to all of it as I had to watch Dr Lyell Asher's Youtube first which I am still digesting. There are several areas which overlap with what you are saying here I think. 👍🏻
Don't forget that transGENDER pioneers like Virginia Prince were vehemently trying to distance themselves from any notion of their being homosexuals. Gay crossdressing was regarded as being part of male prostitution and, thus, toxic to the TG cause. In the U.K. the Beaumont Society had a very strict anti-gay policy. Prince even defined the term "transGENDER" as typically meaning a married heterosexual male who makes a social choice to adopt a feminine persona on a 24/7 basis. The early TG social support networks also took care to exclude trans-SEXUALS as well. They had made a BIOLOGICAL choice as opposed to a purely SOCIAL one.
I think it is this way of thinking that can be seen in today's version. The big difference being that Prince acknowledged that he was a male adopting a persona rather than being magicked into female , denied there could be any such thing as "gender conversion surgery" and held what could be called TERF views about fully equipped males being able to claim to be living fully as females.
Subscribed & wish you all the best. Being cancelled for believing in the truth is the pits. A few days ago I was heartbroken because my oldest friend (or so I thought) of 61 years, since we were 8, told me (via WhatsApp) she was saying goodbye because she couldn’t put up with my views anymore. This was triggered by her sending me a photoshopped image commenting on the recent high temperatures; showed the Statue of Liberty on the left captioned 30C and on the right an image showing the Statue of Liberty with the robes removed & dropped down on the pedestal, the muscular body clad in a bikini but clearly flat chested and, in typical AGP selfie mode - as in women’s toilets etc pose - holding its male appendage showing up above & out of the bikini bottoms and with a typically leery facial expression - captioned 40C. I said I was sorry but I didn’t find it funny because of everything that pose represents to me and apparently this was me ‘twisting’ something to be ‘offensive’. There is great progress against the cult but there has been so much capture. My gender critical friends and I take heart from last week’s win by Allison Bailey and the NHS decision to shut down the gender identity clinic at the Tavistock in London. Maya Forstater’s victory earlier this year was huge too. It means a lot to have allies like you and Graham Linehan. Thank you.
Nice work, Arty. The historical context is really valuable.
Great post, seems absolutely spot on.
I knew you had it in you!
Brilliant and covers new ground that's really old ground.
Well done
That was really interesting to read, Arty! I completely agree, things seem to have shifted from a matter of politeness and courtesy to a matter of faith/ belief. I wonder if what you described was replicated in the gay and lesbian community in the UK and the rest of Europe and played out in the same way or if the latter part is purely an import of belief from the US? Like Evangelical Churches? LOL!
I used a lot of Americanism -- Blue States, Red States, Trump, MAGA. But I think the trend is applicable across Europe and North America. Im actually in Canada myself, and I'm sure the majority of my readers are in the UK.
No worries, I'm in the UK and a subscriber to both yours and "The Mess" YTube and Glinners substack so I'm familiar with you and where you are coming from. My question was from a place of genuine curiosity and not necessarily directed at you but other readers who might be able to give insight. OK- bear with me! So, I lived in the South of Norway from about 14/15 until 21 years old. In that tiny town (like 6-7 thousand) there were a bunch of churches, way too many. And several of them were Evangelical churches, talking in tongues, disco is the music of the devil, drink alcohol and you'll go to hell types. This was new to me as they weren't a "thing" really in the UK. It was a really weird environment and teenage rebellion was difficult as the Christian Democrat Party prohibited the sale of alcohol but we bought boomboxes and moonshine and made it work hahaha (lots of skinny dipping at night, good times!). Very much like small town America really. But, given the strong ties between Norway and the US (everyone had a cousin living in America) it kind of made sense. Back to the UK in 1997, Evangelical Churches still weren't a thing. But about 15 years ago they did start to become "a thing"! And they are way more widespread. So I'm specifically curious about whether the "religion" of Trans in its current form arrived more or less fully fledged in the UK as an online and/or academic import, given we didn't have the same sociopolitical/ political dynamics happening in the US. Or if LGB people in the UK and the rest of Europe feel that it happened in the same way as in America and Canada? Hope that makes sense?
Oh I'm so silly I should have looked at the username before I replied! Of course I know you, Proseccosaurus! From twitter etc!
That's an interesting upbringing in Norway! And you make an interesting point about Evangelicalism. I'm not sure if this directly relates to your comment, but I think the way that the Left has become religious seems somewhat different than American Evangelicalism. I tend to look at religion from a sociological lens, as a system of keeping groups together; the more insecure a group feels the higher the "cost" to remain in it, and the bigger the "benefit". By "cost" i mean affirming beliefs that are more extreme or adopting practices that are more likely to isolate you from outsiders. And by "benefit" I mean the group supports you more strongly. By that analogy, I guess gender ideology used to be more akin to a liberal christian sect, say, the United Church: you have to mildly believe some mildly untrue things, and you get a mild affirmation from a mildly united group of people. But now it's more akin to evangelicalism I suppose: you have to strictly believe some extremely outrageous things, and you have to cut yourself off from anyone who doesn't agree ("the transphobes!"), and the benefit is that you have a very tight-knit, affirming circle, but only so long as you stay within the rules. Does that make sense?
Yes, I'm Proseccosaurus 😊 I wish I could change my name here and on YTube but it won't seem to let me! Yes, that does make sense when you apply it to the Left as a whole- I was just thinking of LGB communities specifically but they don't exist in a vacuum. Widening it to the Left (where it is now anyway) as whole covers it, as it isn't just Trans ideology that requires you to believe "mildly untrue" things that gradually stretches you towards believing outrageous things if you want to stay within the group is it? There are a lot of other things we are required to "believe" even though they don't stand up to any sort of critical thinking. Looking forward to watching your video when I finish work today so I can listen and think about it some more 😉 Also, have you heard Heterodorx's latest podcast "Why Colleges Are Becoming Cults"? I haven't listened to all of it as I had to watch Dr Lyell Asher's Youtube first which I am still digesting. There are several areas which overlap with what you are saying here I think. 👍🏻
Don't forget that transGENDER pioneers like Virginia Prince were vehemently trying to distance themselves from any notion of their being homosexuals. Gay crossdressing was regarded as being part of male prostitution and, thus, toxic to the TG cause. In the U.K. the Beaumont Society had a very strict anti-gay policy. Prince even defined the term "transGENDER" as typically meaning a married heterosexual male who makes a social choice to adopt a feminine persona on a 24/7 basis. The early TG social support networks also took care to exclude trans-SEXUALS as well. They had made a BIOLOGICAL choice as opposed to a purely SOCIAL one.
I think it is this way of thinking that can be seen in today's version. The big difference being that Prince acknowledged that he was a male adopting a persona rather than being magicked into female , denied there could be any such thing as "gender conversion surgery" and held what could be called TERF views about fully equipped males being able to claim to be living fully as females.
Subscribed & wish you all the best. Being cancelled for believing in the truth is the pits. A few days ago I was heartbroken because my oldest friend (or so I thought) of 61 years, since we were 8, told me (via WhatsApp) she was saying goodbye because she couldn’t put up with my views anymore. This was triggered by her sending me a photoshopped image commenting on the recent high temperatures; showed the Statue of Liberty on the left captioned 30C and on the right an image showing the Statue of Liberty with the robes removed & dropped down on the pedestal, the muscular body clad in a bikini but clearly flat chested and, in typical AGP selfie mode - as in women’s toilets etc pose - holding its male appendage showing up above & out of the bikini bottoms and with a typically leery facial expression - captioned 40C. I said I was sorry but I didn’t find it funny because of everything that pose represents to me and apparently this was me ‘twisting’ something to be ‘offensive’. There is great progress against the cult but there has been so much capture. My gender critical friends and I take heart from last week’s win by Allison Bailey and the NHS decision to shut down the gender identity clinic at the Tavistock in London. Maya Forstater’s victory earlier this year was huge too. It means a lot to have allies like you and Graham Linehan. Thank you.